Post by Mark NPost by T3Post by Mark NWoah! "I'm prolly not gonna like it"? "It suks"?? Weren't you the "We
own it!" and "Not so bad, eh?" guy? Anyway, let's go back almost
exactly one year (6/16/07), when you posed this question and we had
So, I take it you agree with the above, okay..
I would suggest that you not take it that way...
[Tom the Historical Revisionist attempts to destroy the evidence]
What evidence? Evidence that you're some sort of pompous, elitist fool?
In that case, you got me..
Post by Mark NPost by T3Post by Mark NWell, I can see why you're backsliding now, trying deperately to do
that subtle little dance to the rational side of this matter. Looking
at what I said, my thought in retrospect is that I really had no idea
exactly how bad it could get. Btw, here is the latest public opinion on
Backslide? Why? Damn near everything is turning out pretty much like I
thought and said it would,
Hah! Whether or not you predicted it, and with all your spitting and
sputtering on the AMA over the years it's impossible to say what you
might have "predicted", you certainly got what you so clearly wanted,
the AMA is a goner and Your Boys are now in charge. Congratulations, you
must be very pleased.
Whether, or not? Heheeeeh, riiiight..
Unlike you I realize my wants and needs don't extend into this deal, I
simply tried to tell you this was possible. You, with all the wisdom of
a new born squid chose to jump up and down and ignore what many saw as
obvious. Unlike you, I've been around a long time and have seen things
like this before and knew right off this was gonna get ugly before it
got better, but calling DMG my boy's because I like M/C racing at
Daytona, or live in Florida would be like me calling you an earthquake
lover because you live in the 'Frisco area, so stop, it only makes you
look more a provincial schmuck than you probably are..(or not)
Post by Mark NAs far as our predictions on the details, based on our discussion a year
ago (before any of this went down), I seem to have been concerned about
their lack of focus, their Daytona-centrism and the way that impacts the
rest of the series, their switch to dumbed-down 600s, the possibility of
more bowls and less safety, the manufactured competitiveness bit and
driving the factories off. Seems to me that we've seen all of that in
play so far, and in spades. But to you that "resembles either a dodge,
or windmill chase", and that I needed "some time to formulate a rational
response". Hmm.
Until I actually see it I won't actually know, will I? You see, unlike
you I don't blindly follow what some others (with an agenda) may say, I
like to poke around and see for myself, and when I, or if I finally do
figure it out I might tell you what I think, that is, if I actually
believe you might understand. Until then, well, until then..
Post by Mark NYou, on the other hand, seemed to think anything good for Daytona would
be viewed as good for the OEMs, that the problem with 600s was the AMA
(as always), that we have to live with bowls because no other tracks
will be built (and even Rog Ed talked this week about niew road courses
coming on line in New Jersey, Texas and Norh Carolina, publicly
dismissing Loudon and Watkins Glen), that the OEMs would stop the
NASCARization of bike racing. Double hmm, seems like you pretty much
missed the boat completely...
Oh really? Either you're off your meds, or you're just and out and out,
well, never mind, in any case there's not much sense wasting anymore
time on you. You didn't know much, and I mean very little whatsoever
about US racing then, and it's fairly obvious you haven't learned a
whole bunch since. You may think you dazzle some around here with all
your cut and paste slant's on things, or your overly verbose reply's,
but when it gets down to conceptualizing, or understanding how some
processes actually work, you appear as lost as a baby in the forest..
Post by Mark NPost by T3whether I like it, or not is immaterial..
Oh, no, it's very material. I don't think there's any question at all
that you wanted the AMA out of racing, and no question that you hoped
France & Co. would take over. Why that is is an open question, I guess,
and maybe that doesn't matter. But this new notion that you don't
actually like what is happening, what Your Boys are doing to racing in
this country, is pretty clearly a spin move on your part, an effort to
not end up looking like an isolated chump. Good luck with that...
It is only material to your over-inflated sense of worth, they do not
care whether you like it or not, period, and as far as an isolated
chump? Well, I tell ya' what, you wanna see an isolated chump? Go no
farther than a mirror..
Post by Mark NPost by T3Post by Mark Nhttp://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=32852
If the elevator door opened and Roger Edmondson stepped in, this is what
Heh, I'd prolly ask him for a loan, then maybe I could afford some damn
gas to go to some of their races!
You'd have plenty if you didn't let so much of it escape around here...
So now wanna trade insults? I suggest you arm yourself first, as you're
way over your head in that dept. too.. Heheh, I've got a purdy good one
to, but you're waaay too easy, so I'll resist the temptation, at least
for the moment..
Post by Mark NPost by T3Post by Mark NThe battle last year between Spies and Mladin was epic. Those two guys
rode so hard, and pushed each other so much, they almost killed
themselves in the process. That I would pay to see (and did, at Laguna
Seca, VIR and Road Atlanta; and this year I have already attended races
at Barber and Miller and plan to see the show at Road Atlanta). At all
of the race weekends I have attended, I have never once watched an
entire Formula Xtreme race, even though those races have produced some
of the closest racing in the series. Make no mistake, the attraction for
me (and for many other road racing fans, I am willing to bet) is and has
been watching a couple of the best riders in the world try to tame those
1000cc beasts and beat the other guy to the finish line.
Whatever lifts your skirt I guess, but did I read that right? You're
coming east to Braselton? Hmm...
No, you didn't - I didn't write this, it's from a letter to RRW - please
start over...
Like most of what you write, I (and quite a few others) don't bother to
get that deep in, as it's almost always some kind of BS and in your
case sometimes racist, or waay off color bullshit too, though I will
tell ya' I'm kinda' disappointed, I was sorta' lookin' forward to us
gettin' together for a few seconds up in Georgia..
Post by Mark NPost by T3Post by Mark NAnd now, just when Hacking and Kawasaki and Hodgson and Honda are
starting to show some real progress, and it looks like we might be in
for a few great battles at the front, you want to neuter the series by
putting everyone on 600cc bikes and call the show "Daytona Superbike."
Give me a break.
You wanna bet some real money on whether Hacking and Hodgy start
fighting for wins? If so, I prolly know somebody that would gladly take
some of that action..
Things always look that way to a lot of folks, don't they? Just like
when Julian said he couldn't see anyone but Stoner winning in MotoGP
this year. Not that I would predict it, but I wouldn't be terribly
surprised if the racing gets closer down the stretch, I think the
others have more overhead room for improvement. But someone else
actually winning? Yes, that will likely take something very unusual to
happen.
I assume that was a no, oh well. Why I thought you might actually put
some money behind your mouth eludes me now, but if you ever do have an
original thought and want to back it up let me know, as I'd prolly be
more than happy to take your money..
Post by Mark NPost by T3Post by Mark NDo you have any idea how much easier it is to ride a
600cc machine than it is to ride one of those 1000cc monsters that the
big boys ride around on? Do you think the leaders of any other sport
would sit around brainstorming and come up with the following idea? "OK,
I've got it, let's change the rules to make our premier class 50%
easier! That will bring more fans out for our shows."
I don't know how much "easier" it might be, but the more the merrier as
far as I'm concerned..
Yes, we know financial viability is your primary test and "bigger is
always better"...
Umm, I'm pretty sure financial viability is better than financial *UN*
viability, at least in this dimension , yours? I'm not so sure. Dude,
if it ain't making money it prolly ain't gonna be around too long and
if DMG says anything, I'm thinkin' longevity is one of them, so get
real for a change..
Post by Mark NPost by T3Post by Mark NThis is what you need to understand. I am happy to shell out good money
to see something special, like a three-year smack-down battle between
two of the best riders in the world on wickedly fast GSX-R1000s. Even if
on most days those two guys are 30 seconds ahead of the other riders on
the track. Thirty years from now racing fans still will be talking about
those battles. Don't unnecessarily water down your best product by
putting all of the riders on 600cc machines. It's not necessarily close
racing that I want to see. I want to see unique riders doing unique
things. Oh, yeah, and I don't want to see them get killed trying to ride
in the rain at Mid-Ohio.
Hold up a second, ISTR you (?) going off on me about a decision to race
in the rain there a while back, if so that's not even a crawfish, it's
a flip flop..
Possibly, if I actually wrote that, which I didn't. And my position at
Mid-Ohio wasn't that they should race in the rain, two years ago it was
that the whole issue there went a lot farther than simply blaming it all
on the AMA (as you always do) and moving on, that the riders did things
they shouldn't have, and that a big part of it should be laid at the
feet of Michelle "the Bitch" Trueman-Jockitch as well. Last year it was
just that they did the right thing trying to get the races in on Sunday,
while you said they should have called the whole thing by late morning.
Possibly my ass. I dunno for sure, but "somehow" ISTR you were all over
me for suggesting they rain-out that race instead of running it late
and wet and now you lament someone getting hurt? Wow, you *are* a piece
of work! Heheh, another prime example of your revisionist BS..
Post by Mark NPost by T3Be that as it may, it's obvious you just don't get it, these guys
don't care about how it was done, or what came before, they're like the Borg
and will assimilate what they want, then toss the rest and bitching
about it is irrelevant. This deal wasn't a merge, it's a buy out plain
and simple, and they're gonna do as they please and taking prisoner's,
or listening to how it was done, or how it is done elsewhere I don't
see being real big on their to-do list. Sure, they prolly wouldn't mind
taking your money on race-day, but they're looking to fleece, err, tend
a much larger flock than Proracing ever dreamt of.
Don't know how many times you've said this in various forms, but
guessing dozens, and I still don't understand why you keep repeating
yourself. Yes, what we discuss around here has no material impact on
these guys, just like what we write about anything doesn't. But that
doesn't mean we should all just shut up and go away, on any subject,
it's a forum, for God's sake, nothing more and nothing less. That's not
to say they'll just ignore everything everyone says, I think there are
already some small signs that they have some awareness of some of their
larger gaffs and have reacted a bit. Rog's public reaction on track
additions this week might have been that sort of thing. For course, we
don't know if he's just lying about that, I guess.
What you don't understand and more than likely never will, is the
futility in all your venom, all it does is make you look like a bigger
fool than you are, that is, if that's possible..
They obviously have a plan that has been in the works for some time and
I doubt seriously they're gonna deviate too far from it, at least not
for a while anyway. You don't like it? Cool, move on, there's always
WSB, and GP..(btw, ISTR saying that a while back too)
Post by Mark NRegarding this particular aspect of their actions, you're the one who
wanted a dictatorship. So how do you feel about it now?
Pretty much like I did then. Now, whether Edmunson is the one US racing
needs or not remains to be seen..
Post by Mark NPost by T3That said, it still
remains to be seen whether they can actually deliver, but if it's
possible I'd think these are the guys that could swing it, so we'll
see
Again, who cares if they succeed in bringing in more fans and making
more money, if the product gets degraded in the process? You seem to
think a shitty product watched by more people is somehow an improvement.
And if you don't, why do you keep talking about it this way?
I haven't said much about what I personally think about this deal Mark,
by design too, but yes, bringing in more fans is what they're all
about, that you refuse to see it's their absolute God given right as
the owners to do so is puzzling..
Post by Mark NAnyway, here's the little exchange from a year ago that preceded what I
Cool, let's review..
Post by Mark NT3: I've been hearing alot of 2nd hand stuff about Moto-ST maybe taking
a run at Proracing with expanded classes, as well as calender next year.
Thoughts?
Damn, who knew, or listened for that matter? Obviously you were too
busy defending Yosh and the status quo..
Post by Mark NBruce H.: Could be good - they might really know how to build a base &
support for growing MC racing, my concern is who is going to ride in it?
Chicken/egg thing, until it is big enough to really compete with AMA
it'll be hard to get top riders & without top riders it'll be hard to
grow & compete.
MN (cont.): What it takes is the factories jumping, they are the ones
who decide who has a real show and who doesn't. When Edmondson decided
to take on the AMA in '95 and several tracks went with him, it was the
aligning of the factories with the AMA that snuffed that out. But the
factories will NOT jump unless they are truly unhappy with where they
are, and see a truly viable alternative.
T3: I think you're correct, he didn't have all the ducks lined up, nor
did he have the heavy hitters and deep pocket boys behind him either. It
just might be different this time around, very different indeed..
Again, pretty insightful, huh?
Post by Mark NMN (cont.): I vaguely remember what happened in Australia when another
series challenged ARRC back in the early '90s (?), and it seemed like
that really ended that country having a truly top national championship
series. And of course there's been the George/IRL challenge to CART in
indy car racing that pretty much destroyed open wheel in America.
Before anyone gets too excited about finally being able to dump the
AMA, think about all the possible alternatives. And I think Moto-ST's
association with France and Daytona is NOT a good thing for bike
racing, it smeels too much like the IRL - can you imagine a bike
series that's entirely run on road courses inside bowls? Something to
think about on the weekend of the Loudon "Classic"...
Aha, so before this even happened you didn't like them, ok, I see..
Post by Mark NT3: Tony George is small time compared to France and associates Mark and
he isn't that small. If in fact ST makes a major move on AMA I'd imagine
they'd simply cut a check and not a very large one either, though if
they had tacit appoval from the OEM's they might not feel the need.
So, why don't you like France? Like that outfit doesn't know how to run
a series? Or is it something deeper, like your undying hatred of
anything not Californicated? I'm being serious now, so don't go off and
start slammin' me, 'kay?
"Someone" center-punched that one too..
Post by Mark NBH: Don't know about Mark, but for me it seems if will go for a 2 wheel
NASCAR which might work and make billions of dollars for everyone
invloved, but the actual racing will be on slow bikes with artificial
restrictions so they can run in all the old tracks ( a big point in that
article) which means that it won't be that interesting to me to watch,
won't be pushing bike development, won't be putting better, newer,
updated tracks that could also host World SBK or MotoGP bikes.
T3: If in fact that's what they propose I will be one of the first to
openly trash it, though I'd be very surprised if the OEM's go for
anything like that. The track issue is a horse of a different color and
with the financial climate as it is today, I'd be very surprised if we
see (m)any new road courses anytime soon, that and the cold fact that
France owns a bunch of bowls already and some of those concrete
abominations might not be too bad if they had a decent infield. Would it
be perfect? Hell no, but it could be a lot better than lanquishing as we
are now. Oh, and don't think I'm sold on any ST deal, I'm just musing
the what if's...
Is this guy dialed in, or what?
Post by Mark NMN (cont.): No, I think what would be better is for someone who knows
what they're doing to buy the series from the AMA. Of course, who's
really out there who knows what they're doing?
T3: Err, the Moto-ST boys?
Who knew? Umm, evidently this guy..
Post by Mark NSeems like a case of a thousand words painting a pretty clear picture. I
particularly liked this one: "If in fact that's what they propose I will
be one of the first to openly trash it, though I'd be very surprised if
the OEM's go for anything like that." Hah!!
So, what's inaccurate in any of that? Not much I can see, at least not
past substituting an *all* for a the in front of the OEM part..
Look Mark, I had a little time so I responded to your drivel, but I
gotta' tell 'ya, I'm pretty much over all your Fox News, or Limbaugh
brand of name calling BS, as that pompous idiocy is just too much for
my temperament. Anyway, I'm fixin' to get real busy for the next few
weeks or so fishin' for dolphin and yellowtail down in the Keyes, so I
prolly either won't find the time, or, more likely, just be too
(hungover) tired to call you on *all* of your BS, but do yourself a
favor and stop with the name calling, as there's really no need for it.
Outfits like DMG are controversial on good days, much less transition
one's like we're in now, and I'm fairly sure they'll be plenty to bitch
about when they finally do take complete control. As far as how, or
what they race in *their* series? Well, after all it is theirs, isn't
it? So they can race whatever it is they feel they need to as far as
I'm concerned, and just so you know, my concern in this matter doesn't
go very far at all. It's gonna be what it's gonna be and I seriously
doubt anyone outside of DMG has much chance at changing a damn thing,
at least at the present and I also believe you can pretty much take
that to the bank..
"Personally", I do feel this is a national series and as such should
reflect the "flavor" of this country, (whatever that turns out to be)
not Japan, not Italy, not Spain, or even for that matter, the UK, and
if these guys can't achieve that I don't know who could. I also feel
that production type racing is about making money and it's been like
that since I've been around and that's right around 50 years now. Yes,
back in the day there use to be a little R&D in it, but now days it all
about sale$ and very little more. DMG seems to want to shake that up a
little and why not? After all, a few OEM's have been squeezin' the
honey outta' that hive for decades, so, of course some of them won't go
quietly into the night, but you know what? I'm thinkin' they won't be
go far, if, in fact, any of them go anywhere at all. That said, I
really do have to go, fishin' that is, c'ya...