Nicky's pass on Lorenzo at Aragon and more loose thoughts.

[MJRydsFast]

If he can ride that aggressively for the next five races, he may
actually win one. I'd like to see it. Spies is going to be dangerous
next year and the year after. I wish someone would give Simoncelli a
decent factory ride. He's a hidden gem as well. Next year will be just
as boring (I'm betting) but once they get the 1000's back and cut back
on the electronics, it should be fun again, especially if the
satellite teams can bring a competitive bike. Moto 2 sure is fun and
if I'm a team manager, either in Moto GP or WSBK, I'm looking at
Iannone for sure! In fact, if I had a WSBK time, I'd be recruiting
Iannone and Samson onto the same team. Melandri is going to be a deep
threat in that series. Max will have his hands full holding onto that
title (that I hope he gets). Colin I guess is officially a development
rider now. I can't see the guy winning a GP ever. Like Nori, I believe
his spirit is broken. Unless, they do a full on "rain race" where
Schwantz and Corser both stated that it really evens the bikes out.
We'll see.

[pablo]

Post by MJRydsFast
If he can ride that aggressively for the next five races, he may
actually win one. I'd like to see it.

Hayden has always been methodical, and I think Stoner sometimes being
disoriented -clearly not today- helps the attention he gets within
Ducati.

Post by MJRydsFast
... Spies is going to be dangerous
next year and the year after.

And after and after.

Post by MJRydsFast
... I wish someone would give Simoncelli a
decent factory ride. He's a hidden gem ...

He has a venerable history of being inconsistent. If he learns to be
fast when he doesn't feel comfortable, perhaps. I am not sold on him.

Post by MJRydsFast
if I'm a team manager, either in Moto GP or WSBK, I'm looking at
Iannone for sure! In fact, if I had a WSBK time, I'd be recruiting
Iannone and Samson onto the same team. Melandri is going to be a deep
threat in that series. Max will have his hands full ...

I don't know. You didnt mention Elias, who is bound to win Moto2 and
seemingly rejoin MotoGP despite being a 2 time reject. And I think
Elias is damn entertaining, but I don't expect him to make it count in
MotoGP this time around either. Melandri... such talent, I think he'd
need at least a year to fully get his confidence back. And hope he
does.

Post by MJRydsFast
... Colin I guess is officially a development
rider now. I can't see the guy winning a GP ever. Like Nori, I believe
his spirit is broken. Unless, they do a full on "rain race" where
Schwantz and Corser both stated that it really evens the bikes out.

Edwards has ridden in the rain, and while he did well, he didn't win
either. I think it's the old story of being older and losing the bite.
Edwards would be one to watch in WSB though.

[Mark N]

Post by pablo

Post by MJRydsFast
If he can ride that aggressively for the next five races, he may
actually win one. I'd like to see it.

Hayden has always been methodical, and I think Stoner sometimes being
disoriented -clearly not today- helps the attention he gets within
Ducati.

I think the impact Hayden has had on Ducati over the last year+ is very
substantial, even as their bike has slid into the #3 slot among the
three serious factories in MotoGP. His progress has evidenced that the
Ducati is no longer a Stoner-only career-killer, which has done things
like opening the door to Rossi's arrival, the return of Capirossi, Dovi
using a Pramac ride as leverage with Honda, none of which one could have
seriously contemplated in early '09.

Hayden's problem going forward is that he's in the now-classic American
role as a factory #2, next to a huge EuroMed star and sponsor darling,
and he is almost certainly destined for 2nd-level treatment and a
testing role. At least he's at Ducati, which is probably the best place
for that, and was there first.

Post by pablo

Post by MJRydsFast
... Spies is going to be dangerous
next year and the year after.

And after and after.

Especially once he gets on a 1000...

Post by pablo

Post by MJRydsFast
... I wish someone would give Simoncelli a
decent factory ride. He's a hidden gem ...

He has a venerable history of being inconsistent. If he learns to be
fast when he doesn't feel comfortable, perhaps. I am not sold on him.

Yes, I feel very wait-and-see about the guy, he's made a lot of progress
over the year, but as a guy who many thought would bloom on the "big"
bike, and who has some sort of factory version of the best bike out
there, he still is a bit of a disappointment, not remotely in the same
class as Spies.

Post by pablo

Post by MJRydsFast
Melandri is going to be a deep
threat in that series. Max will have his hands full ...

Melandri... such talent, I think he'd
need at least a year to fully get his confidence back. And hope he
does.

Marco is a funny guy, he really had a very short period of running at
the front in MotoGP, won his five races in less than a year's period,
from late '05 to late '06, all on the RC211 990 on Michelins, and looks
to be heading toward the 4th podiumless season of his MotoGP career (and
one wet race is what separates him from it being his 5th). He really has
become a guy you can't count on, unfortunately.

Post by pablo

Post by MJRydsFast
... Colin I guess is officially a development
rider now. I can't see the guy winning a GP ever. Like Nori, I believe
his spirit is broken. Unless, they do a full on "rain race" where
Schwantz and Corser both stated that it really evens the bikes out.

Edwards has ridden in the rain, and while he did well, he didn't win
either. I think it's the old story of being older and losing the bite.
Edwards would be one to watch in WSB though.

It's hard not to see age being a factor, but who knows. Definitely a
loyalty hire at this point, probably because of the way he swallowed
hard and did his job next to Vale for those years. It would be one of
the great things to see him win a race next year, but about as close to
impossible as it gets (even as close as he got at Donington last year).

Post by pablo
On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 17:16:07 -0700 (PDT), MJRydsFast

Post by MJRydsFast
If he can ride that aggressively for the next five races, he may
actually win one. I'd like to see it.

One pass does not a race winner make.

Post by MJRydsFast
Spies is going to be dangerous next year and the year after.

Hopefully. He's had a great rookie season, but he would be the first
to admit that he's got another level to step up next year.
Talking of Dovi, Has anyone seen what happened to him on the last lap?
Did Spies run him onto the grass, or was it a failed hail mary pass?

Hah, nice to see anti-Americanism is alive and well at RMR!

As for Spies, he was simply the most-impressive Yamaha rider on the
track Sunday, just as he was at Indy. Dovi clearly had a better bike
than Ben, and yet he ended up in the dirt with nothing; Ben's pass-back
on the outside at the end of the straight on the penultimate lap was
brilliant stuff, as were his further efforts to hold Dovi off. Next
season he'll have a year under his belt (as will Houseworth) and will be
on the factory team, which is probably the only level step-up he needs.

Of course he's also in the same position Colin was in there, and Hayden
is in at Ducati, and was at Honda, #2 to a huge EuroMed GP star and
sponsor darling, so...

[Julian Bond]

Post by Mark N
Hah, nice to see anti-Americanism is alive and well at RMR!

Not at all. We were all shouting for Spies in this house and royally
pissed off that the camera didn't follow the battle. If he ran Dovi onto
the grass it would have been further proof (if any was needed) that he's
a hard rider. All those years of Mladin and then Haga mean he doesn't
give an inch. As you say those passes at the end of the long straight
were epic.

[Champ]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 07:41:09 -0700, Mark N

Post by Mark N

Post by Julian Bond
Talking of Dovi, Has anyone seen what happened to him on the last lap?
Did Spies run him onto the grass, or was it a failed hail mary pass?

Hah, nice to see anti-Americanism is alive and well at RMR!

uh? You really do see reds under the bed, don't you. How could that
statement possibly be anti-American? If Spies 'ran him onto the
grass', then he deserved it, by being in the wrong place at the wrong
time. Although, if I had to be, I'd say it was much more likely that
Dovi crashed all by himself.

I've not heard anyone, anywhere, say anything negative about Spies.
He seems to be universally respected and admired.

[Champ]

Post by Champ
Although, if I had to be,

I meant, "...if I had to bet,..."

[Mark N]

Post by Champ

Post by Mark N
Hah, nice to see anti-Americanism is alive and well at RMR!

uh? You really do see reds under the bed, don't you. How could that
statement possibly be anti-American? If Spies 'ran him onto the
grass', then he deserved it, by being in the wrong place at the wrong
time. Although, if I had to be, I'd say it was much more likely that
Dovi crashed all by himself.
I've not heard anyone, anywhere, say anything negative about Spies.
He seems to be universally respected and admired.

Well, not since he went to WSB last year and started kicking Euro ass,
anyway...

Now imagine if that was, say, Rossi dueling Pedrosa on an inferior
motorcycle - would the total reaction be, "Talking of Dani, Has anyone
seen what happened to him on the last lap? Did Rossi run him onto the
grass?" Somehow I think not. Other than the fact that the cameras would
never have dared stray from that battle, of course.

I think Stoner rode a great race and beating the red-hot Pedrosa/Honda
combo was a major story, but beyond that the appeal of this race was
Hayden hunting down and eventually passing Lorenzo for the podium, and
Spies' efforts to hold 5th against Dovi (while also running 1-2 seconds
behind Lorenzo on the top factory Yamaha and killing Rossi and Edwards).
Just seemed like the reaction from across the pond was decidedly
luke-warm, that's all - "one pass does not a winner make", "He's got to
step it up", "did he run the guy off the track?"...

[Julian Bond]

Post by Mark N
Just seemed like the reaction from across the pond was decidedly
luke-warm, that's all - "one pass does not a winner make", "He's got to
step it up", "did he run the guy off the track?"...

Here. Have a chip.

[sturd]

Post by Julian Bond
Here. Have a chip.

Is it a wanker chip? He's already got one of those.

If it'd been Rossi, first question wouldn't have been
"did he run him in into the grass" but "how hard did he
hit him?"


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

[Champ]

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 07:48:41 -0700, Mark N

Post by Mark N

Post by Champ

Post by Mark N
Hah, nice to see anti-Americanism is alive and well at RMR!

uh? You really do see reds under the bed, don't you. How could that
statement possibly be anti-American? If Spies 'ran him onto the
grass', then he deserved it, by being in the wrong place at the wrong
time. Although, if I had to bet, I'd say it was much more likely that
Dovi crashed all by himself.

Now imagine if that was, say, Rossi dueling Pedrosa on an inferior
motorcycle - would the total reaction be, "Talking of Dani, Has anyone
seen what happened to him on the last lap? Did Rossi run him onto the
grass?" Somehow I think not.

eh? That's *exactly* what the reaction would have been. Well, it
would have been mine, anyway.

You need to go back to your therapist, or back on medication, or
whatever it is you need. All this anger can't be good for you.

[Mark N]

Post by Champ

Post by Mark N
Now imagine if that was, say, Rossi dueling Pedrosa on an inferior
motorcycle - would the total reaction be, "Talking of Dani, Has anyone
seen what happened to him on the last lap? Did Rossi run him onto the
grass?" Somehow I think not.

eh? That's *exactly* what the reaction would have been. Well, it
would have been mine, anyway.

I think you should go back to July 2008 and look at the discussion
regarding Rossi and Stoner at Laguna. Of course there's the defense of
Rossi's tactics, but it goes waaay beyond that, from downplaying of what
he did in some instances (You: "The one 'incident' was where Vale went
past on the way into the corkscrew (a nice clean move), and ran just
into the dirt on the downhill part - he then came back on to the track a
little out of shape, and Stoner had to move over a little. But really,
what was Stoner expecting Rossi to do - *not* ride back onto the
track?") to the usual "Rossi breaks another one" line, but to extreme
(Julian: "But what I did see was the moment when they finally go head to
head, mano a mano. Rossi didn't blink while Stoner did. And for someone
who only likes winning that hurts. And the worst of it is that Rossi
knows that and knows how to rub salt in it so it hurts more. The final
master stroke was to stride over and offer a handshake with a big grin
just as Stoner's about to start the interview with the BBC in Parc
Ferme. And you just know that if the cards land the right way again this
year, and they surely will, Rossi's going to do it all over again. and
again. Because for him its not about running off into the distance. It's
about beating someone on the last lap when they thought they had it in
the bag. It's about destroying their belief in their ability to beat
him. And its about kicking them when they're down if they don't have the
good grace to acknowledge that he won.")

Unlikely to be quite as extreme in this case, of course, but there would
have been a hell of a lot more than asking if Rossi had ran Dani off the
track, and probably not even that had their not been some irrefutable
evidence that he did (and in this case there was absolutely no evidence
or suggestion at all that Spies had done anything to Dovi except race
him cleanly for the position). In this case that's all there was, just
some foundationless suggestion that Spies might have done something
slightly less that totally clean, and in turn that caused Dovi to crash,
nothing about Spies' repasses, about him being mentally tougher, about
him making Dovi his bitch, whatever. No, this wasn't nearly as critical
as Rossi-Stoner was then, but it was the most compelling action of the
entire race, and not without any importance, given what Spies represents
within the framework of MotoGP.

Anyway, just an observation, and it seems you two doth protest just a
bit too much. And I do still give you credit for being the one notable
"furner" here who Euro-centrism and said MotoGP was losing out when no
one hired Spies after his Suzuki wildcards back in '08, btw. Turned out
you were right, eh?

[Switters]

Post by Mark N
Anyway, just an observation

Yeah, right. You have WAAYYYY too much time on your hands. Along with
that inferiority complex, it's not a good combo.

[Switters]

Post by Mark N

Post by Julian Bond
Talking of Dovi, Has anyone seen what happened to him on the last lap?
Did Spies run him onto the grass, or was it a failed hail mary pass?

Hah, nice to see anti-Americanism is alive and well at RMR!

Yeah, damn red-necks taking our rides!

[Champ]

On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 17:16:07 -0700 (PDT), MJRydsFast

Post by MJRydsFast
If he can ride that aggressively for the next five races, he may
actually win one. I'd like to see it.

One pass does not a race winner make.

Post by MJRydsFast
Spies is going to be dangerous next year and the year after.

Hopefully. He's had a great rookie season, but he would be the first
to admit that he's got another level to step up next year.

Post by MJRydsFast
I wish someone would give Simoncelli a decent factory ride.

He's already on a factory bike.

[Julian Bond]

Post by Champ
On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 17:16:07 -0700 (PDT), MJRydsFast

Post by MJRydsFast
I wish someone would give Simoncelli a decent factory ride.

He's already on a factory bike.

That'll be the factory bike that's not quite as factory as the Repsol
bikes. Dovi must be wondering if he gets forced to ride the same next
year if, he'll be a further 0.3s off the pace.

Talking of Dovi, Has anyone seen what happened to him on the last lap?
Did Spies run him onto the grass, or was it a failed hail mary pass?

[DaveW]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:45:54 +0100, Julian Bond

Post by Julian Bond
Talking of Dovi, Has anyone seen what happened to him on the last lap?
Did Spies run him onto the grass, or was it a failed hail mary pass?

He seems to take responsibility himself:

"The crash happened between turns 12 and
13. Spies went in too deep and I tried to
overtake him on the inside. That meant I was
carrying a little bit more speed through the
change of direction and as I flicked from left to
right I highsided."

[Julian Bond]

Post by DaveW
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:45:54 +0100, Julian Bond

Post by Julian Bond
Talking of Dovi, Has anyone seen what happened to him on the last lap?
Did Spies run him onto the grass, or was it a failed hail mary pass?

"The crash happened between turns 12 and
13. Spies went in too deep and I tried to
overtake him on the inside. That meant I was
carrying a little bit more speed through the
change of direction and as I flicked from left to
right I highsided."

Hey, ho. It's a shame we couldn't see this on the TV feed as well as
Stoner winning, Pedrosa coming second and Hayden's pass on Lorenzo.
Seems like they quite the fight on the last couple of laps.

[Switters]

Post by Julian Bond
Hey, ho. It's a shame we couldn't see this on the TV feed as well as
Stoner winning, Pedrosa coming second and Hayden's pass on Lorenzo.
Seems like they quite the fight on the last couple of laps.

It's part of what annoys me about the TV coverage. They'll show the
leaders crossing the line (sometimes annoying), but then they show the
team's jumping around and patting each other on the back, when there's a
battle going on down field.

[Ed Light]

Post by Switters
It's part of what annoys me about the TV coverage. They'll show the
leaders crossing the line (sometimes annoying), but then they show the
team's jumping around and patting each other on the back, when there's a
battle going on down field.

Yes! And more than once. At least they could replay the following
battle's passes and crashes.
--
Ed Light

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[Ed Light]

Post by Ed Light

It's part of what annoys me about the TV coverage. They'll show the
leaders crossing the line (sometimes annoying), but then they show the
team's jumping around and patting each other on the back, when there's a
battle going on down field.

Yes! And more than once. At least they could replay the following
battle's passes and crashes.

By the way, I watched it at motogp.com. Not sure how different that is
to British and European coverage. The rider interviews on the starting
line don't come on, normally; a camera is roving around but no sound.
--
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[Switters]

Post by Ed Light

Post by Ed Light

It's part of what annoys me about the TV coverage. They'll show the
leaders crossing the line (sometimes annoying), but then they show
the team's jumping around and patting each other on the back, when
there's a battle going on down field.

Yes! And more than once. At least they could replay the following
battle's passes and crashes.

By the way, I watched it at motogp.com. Not sure how different that is
to British and European coverage. The rider interviews on the starting
line don't come on, normally; a camera is roving around but no sound.

British Eurosport don't have their own cameras, so they take the feed from
Dorna and that's it. Sometimes, just sometimes, Eurosport will repeat a
section of the feed if something was missed during an ad-break. However,
they don't tend to do ad-breaks during the racing these days.

In comparison, the BBC have a huge OB crew with at least 2 mobile camera
units and will go and get interviews from the riders on the grid and in
Parc Ferme as well as additional segments. They also know about that
recent[1] invention called Picture-in-Picture, so won't interrupt race
coverage with their live interviews during a race. Something Dorna could
do well to learn.

[1] Obvious sarcasm.

[Ed Light]

Post by Switters
British Eurosport don't have their own cameras, so they take the feed from
Dorna and that's it. Sometimes, just sometimes, Eurosport will repeat a
section of the feed if something was missed during an ad-break. However,
they don't tend to do ad-breaks during the racing these days.
In comparison, the BBC have a huge OB crew with at least 2 mobile camera
units and will go and get interviews from the riders on the grid and in
Parc Ferme as well as additional segments. They also know about that
recent[1] invention called Picture-in-Picture, so won't interrupt race
coverage with their live interviews during a race. Something Dorna could
do well to learn.

Very interesting. I don't recall the motogp.com during-race coverage
interrupted for live interviews on-camera, though they will get some
comments by audio from the teams. So that's a little better. But it must
be Dorna's coverage, complete with abandoning the last-lap dices for the
winner crossing the line.

I'll send them a comment on that at the web site. Everyone could start
an account there and do the same. Or maybe it doesn't require an account.
--
Ed Light

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[Ed Light]

Post by Ed Light
be Dorna's coverage, complete with abandoning the last-lap dices for the
winner crossing the line.
I'll send them a comment on that at the web site. Everyone could start
an account there and do the same. Or maybe it doesn't require an account.

I've checked and it doesn't require an account. You can go to motogp.com
and click the Contact link at the lower right at the bottom.

Here's what I wrote:
--
On rec.motorcycles.racing, we're talking about your video coverage. We
really wanted to follow the last lap dice[s]. In the heat of the Spies
vs Dovisioso battle, we had to leave it and see the winner cross the
line, and not go back to it. The commentators were way into the battle,
and it had some fantastic developments that we never saw, not even in a
replay.

So I'm hoping that for future races, if there's a big dice on the last
lap that's not at the front, that you could stay with it. You could
replay the winner crossing the line.

Or, if you cut to the winner crossing the line, then you could replay
the dice.

We're all really wondering what happened between when the camera left
the dice and when Dovi fell off. Apparently there were a few passes.

The winner, if out by himself, crossing the line is not so exciting at all.

Thanks.
--
Ed Light

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[Switters]

Post by Ed Light

Post by Switters
In comparison, the BBC have a huge OB crew with at least 2 mobile
camera units and will go and get interviews from the riders on the
grid and in Parc Ferme as well as additional segments. They also
know about that recent[1] invention called Picture-in-Picture, so
won't interrupt race coverage with their live interviews during a
race. Something Dorna could do well to learn.

Very interesting. I don't recall the motogp.com during-race coverage
interrupted for live interviews on-camera,

Sorry, I meant that the BBC do their own interviews during the race,
mostly with the chief-mechanic or team-boss, and sometimes with a rider
that has returned to the pits. For that, they use P-in-P. They might
also have audio only ones, I don't know as I use their coverage
(sometimes) for the pre-race and post-race stuff only.

Eurosport has a less annoying commentary team.

[Ed Light]

Post by Switters

Post by Ed Light

Post by Switters
In comparison, the BBC have a huge OB crew with at least 2 mobile
camera units and will go and get interviews from the riders on the
grid and in Parc Ferme as well as additional segments. They also
know about that recent[1] invention called Picture-in-Picture, so
won't interrupt race coverage with their live interviews during a
race. Something Dorna could do well to learn.

Very interesting. I don't recall the motogp.com during-race coverage
interrupted for live interviews on-camera,

Sorry, I meant that the BBC do their own interviews during the race,
mostly with the chief-mechanic or team-boss, and sometimes with a rider
that has returned to the pits. For that, they use P-in-P. They might
also have audio only ones, I don't know as I use their coverage
(sometimes) for the pre-race and post-race stuff only.
Eurosport has a less annoying commentary team.

Whoa, I wasn't being sascastic! Just saying that remembering the
motogp.com coverage, I can't recall *them* doing any live interviews on
the grid.

Thanks for the info.
--
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[Ed Light]

Post by Ed Light
remembering the
motogp.com coverage, I can't recall *them* doing any live interviews on
the grid.

Hmm - maybe my older mind is fading. Now I seem to remember them doing
some interviews. But, the camera is almost never there, simply wandering
around and stopping with each rider. Usually they're commenting on the
rider we're seeing. Just one time the camera happened upon the interview
that we were hearing.
--
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[Ed Light]

Post by Ed Light
the camera is almost never there, simply wandering
around and stopping with each rider. Usually they're commenting on the
rider we're seeing. Just one time the camera happened upon the interview
that we were hearing.

I should mention that when the motogp.com camera stops with each rider
on the grid, often the rider is prepared with a sign with a message, and
lots of hamming it up!
--
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[Switters]

Post by Ed Light

Post by Ed Light
the camera is almost never there, simply wandering
around and stopping with each rider. Usually they're commenting on
the rider we're seeing. Just one time the camera happened upon the
interview that we were hearing.

When British Eurosport used Randy Mamola as a roving reporter, it was
always fun[1] to see him caught on camera and get the pictures as well.
Of course the sound was out of sync though.

Post by Ed Light
I should mention that when the motogp.com camera stops with each rider
on the grid, often the rider is prepared with a sign with a message,
and lots of hamming it up!

Yeah, we see that too. :-)

[1] For some definition of fun, obviously.